Anika Zubair (00:00.696)
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Hello, everyone. I'm your host, Anika Zuber, and welcome back to the next episode of the Customer Success Pro podcast. I'm a Customer Success Executive Leader, award-winning CS strategist, CS coach, and Customer Success fanatic. I help CS leaders and CSMs build and scale world-class CS processes and teams. I'm a strong believer that customer success is not a destination, but a journey. And it can be a tough journey, but don't worry, I'm here to help.

This podcast was created to help make your CS journey a little bit easier to navigate. Join me every month on this podcast where we will dive into the hottest topics in CS, the newest strategies, and the best practices in customer success so you can make your CS journey a little bit easier. Make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts so that you can continue to learn on this CS journey that we are on together.

Anika Zubair (01:56.407)
Welcome back. Today I am speaking with Sinojmet, who is the head of customer success at whale.io. Not only is he a CS leader, but he is also a podcaster as well. And he hosts two podcasts, the Customer Success Hotline and the We M-Up So You Don't Have to podcast.

He is a first time CS leader, but long time customer success pro. And when he started in customer success, he wasn't focused on revenue, but due to the current world of SaaS and the pressures on companies to become profitable, he, like many other CS pros out there have realized that it's not enough just to be a good CS pro. And it's not enough to just be strategic, but now you have to be revenue focused as well. But how? How do you make this mindset shift and how do you start?

making the changes to become more focused on revenue if you're a first time leader in customer success. Well, let's chat to Stino and get his tips, tricks and best practices on how to become a revenue focused CS leader. Welcome Stino to the podcast. is so exciting for me. I already feel the energy coming through this recording, but I am so, so happy to welcome you onto my podcast. You are.

podcast expert actually. You have not one, not two, but supposedly three podcasts and you are the best customer success cheerleader. You're a Zumba instructor. You're like the full package. You do everything. But before we get into today's topic, I would love to know in your own words, like who you are, tell my listeners a little bit more about yourself. Give me the lowdown. Who is Tino? Who is Tino?

I would say Stino is the head of customer success at whale with eight years of customer success experience and a previous life. I was a tax attorney, but as you maybe see in this podcast, I didn't really fit the mold. And if you follow me on LinkedIn, also notice that my posts are fitting that mold. I.

Anika Zubair (04:01.899)
Want to give as much back to the customer success community as I can with my posts and my knowledge because I received so much during my career from yourself because I've been following you. Like, you know that I see you as one of the muses of customer success. You know, like Hercules has his muses. I'm not saying that I'm Hercules, but for me, there are this group of women that have been there from the start, like the cop mothers.

the like literally the foundation of customer success. And I could consider you one of them. So with my content, I want to give as much back as I can. And I think authenticity and customer success is key. And yeah, I two podcasts, the Wee bleeped up so you don't have to and the customer success hotline. And there is a third one coming up in 2025, but that's still in production. So I can't say that much, but it's going to be a very, very fun one.

my gosh, how exciting. I'm going to link all your podcasts, all the information in the show notes. So anyone who wants to know everything that Cedar gets up to, I will link it all down in the show notes. And I'm sure if you follow him on LinkedIn, he will share this new one, which I'm excited about as well. You're a Zumba instructor as well. I've learned this as well, which is so cool. What made you start doing that?

Well, thing is Zumba has already been a part of my time since I was at university and then I stopped because law school was getting a little bit too hard. And I picked it up again while I was working because I needed to have a healthy way of stress relief. And then there was like, one day there was this Black Friday promo to get your license. then, and my friend and also who taught me Zumba here where, and the place that I live was like, yeah, I'm getting a little bit

tired of it, can we like switch like the way on how we do classes? And I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? And then I rolled it in and now I teach four Zumba classes a week and four different places. and it's the best way on relief stress to get like my mental health in check, but also to try stuff out and apply things that I've learned in customer success in Zumba. And, also the way that I teach Zumba and, and generate energy.

Anika Zubair (06:18.347)
is also something that I can get back into my customer success. So in that sense, it's a very great synergy in like work and fun and health and sport and everything basically. love that. You are such a practitioner of everything you say, because right now you just said that I learned CS through like everyone and sharing and everything that I've been in. And you held yourself accountable. You're now a customer success leader, but you also did the same in your

personal fitness life as well. You started to really love something and now you teach it. Like, I absolutely love that you really take everything by full force. Like, you really do. Like, you don't hold back. It's everything is like zero to a hundred really quick. And I absolutely love that about you. And I love that you shared a little bit of who you are as a person. And I would love to know a little bit more about your team and company and your position, because I know this is your first leadership role and

You've been a long time practitioner and then you've come from a different background, but you're in a head of customer success role, which is really exciting. But tell us a little bit more about whale.io. Tell me about your team. What do you guys held accountable to? Awesome. So whale is a knowledge sharing and training platform, like a little bit of an LMS, but very based on processes that you have as a company. I think we all know those rather than pages, 20 pages with all of the processes of a company.

And our platform breaks it down into easy to consume, easy to find pieces of information, which makes it easier for a business to scale, to grow, to train a team on your current processes. And I lead a team of four. And we are responsible really to make sure that, well, the value is a given. But also mainly, especially this year, to be revenue driven, because we saw that the economic landscape

people are not going to go for a subscription for the entire company anymore. We are a subscription based model. So if you have 50 people in the company, people are not getting a subscription anymore from 50 from the get go. So it's, take the minimum license and it's our responsibility to land and expand. and to be honest, I didn't have a revenue mindset for the longest time, but it's thanks to things that I've learned on LinkedIn and things that we've been trying out that we now have.

Anika Zubair (08:43.133)
the entire revenue that came in in 2024, 56 % comes in from customer success. So we overpowered sales and I'm always super excited to say that. That is such a cool stat by the way. That is amazing. So last year it was 33%. and then the beginning of this year, that was our main goal to really like have a great expansion plan in place. and again, I wasn't revenue minded, but with like trying things and being that leader.

I always love to approach things that I wouldn't expect things from my team that I wouldn't do myself. And I think that was the main key to success because I was not trying to force or force feed things up on my team that I wasn't comfortable with. So I tried it first for me and see what worked and then give tools to my team and be like, okay, these are the tools, but like fill it in yourself, fill it in on how it authentically makes you feel.

that really was a major cattle. How do you call it? Catalyzer catalyst, a major catalyst for my team because they felt 100 % comfortable and 100 % authentic in what you're trying to do. So in that sense, yeah, it's been quite a journey so far. I love it. You've already said so many things that I want to like keep digging into. You just said like, as a first time leader, you're also just building trust and rapport with your team and you're doing things.

first so that they believe that, know, my leader's done this, so I can do it now too, because I've seen it done, which is really great. I believe in that ethos as a leader as well. But also, you try things out. Here's the thing, like, I really feel some people think that there's like a right way or a certain way to do customer success. honestly, there never is. Like, I have been now at six startups and there is literally nothing that I've taken from one company to the next. Yes, I've taken the idea.

the concepts, but it depends on your customers. It depends on the maturity of your product. It depends on the maturity of your company. And a lot of things you got to try out. And I love that you were given a challenge because like most CS pros this year has been a challenge. And you were told, listen, we've got to up the revenue game. And you weren't sure how to do it, but you tried it out. You discovered new ways of doing things and you you really leapt in and tried it. So I, I love that. And I'm going to

Anika Zubair (11:10.445)
Pick your brain so my listeners know exactly how to do this for themselves as well. before we shift into that topic, I want to know what moved you from accounting to customer success? Because I love that CS pros come from so many different wakes of life and backgrounds, but I've not heard accounting before. So what? That's a huge move. Why customer success? How did you even find out about it?

So no, I was a tax attorney. so I did law school that my, don't know if it's the same, like in the UK or in, I do know in the States, like you do your, exam at like the, at the, at the court to really get your license, like your license exam. So I did that work for a attorney firm. And then I was like, no, this is not me. Like, this is the.

I'm pardon my French, but this was the whitest that I could think of. Like this was very old. Like that's the thing when I want to know like the law profession and there is no disrespect to anyone, but this is a very old white profession and it's been like fueled by ancient principles. And I was like not feeling it. and then my friend at the time who was the office manager at the startup in Ghent, she was like, yeah.

we're looking for a customer success manager. was like, what the bleep is that? Let's see, I'm trying. I'm really trying. What the bleep is that? And she know that I loved helping people. And that was also the main reason why I went into law. And I was like, okay, that is something that I'm interested in. And I'm always here to drive value and make people happy and cheerlead them on and unlock their next level of growth.

And then to be honest, Belgium is always a little behind when it comes to like customer success or any SaaS trends or tech trends. so in the beginning it was just glorified support. and, then I discovered his amazing community on LinkedIn, which taught me to really what success is really about. And then I found my passion and my love because it's basically the same as what an attorney do. I'm arguing a case on how to.

Anika Zubair (13:29.975)
drive value, I'm arguing a case to drive expansion. I'm arguing all the time basically, but in a very authentic way that is, feels comfortable for me. And that is why I rolled in into customer success all these years ago. I love that story. And I also love the parallels that you just drew in. Like you're arguing a case for customers, like for your customers, for your product, whatever it is you are. And it's so true. Like every day in CS, either we're just like,

advocating for our customers internally or we're trying to advocate for our product to our customer. It's a great way of drawing parallels, but I also do not see you in the law field. So I'm so happy to have you in the customer success sector because I think your energy and your cheerleaders or whatever you want to call it, I absolutely love it. And I'm sure your team and a lot of other people appreciate it as well. You have just moved into your first CS leadership role. Like you said, you started, you decided to take a

a chance in the startup world and the CS world. I love knowing from my guests kind of what is your dream ambition or what is your next step in your CS career? What is it you're hoping to do in customer success?

that is a very difficult question because the, always say that,

There isn't like a well-staffed out career path. Like for the longest time, I always thought that like, because you get that four-suite, right? As well, like you are starting out as a junior, you want to be a senior, your next step should be a team lead and then a head of director, VP. And I took away the pressure of always thinking what's next for me because to be honest,

Anika Zubair (15:25.857)
Being in a leadership position takes you way back into that junior position. And that is something that people often forget. If it's your first time, anytime in a new role, you're back into a junior position. Meaning that for now my first year as a head off, for that first year I felt junior. I needed to do things again for the first time. I needed to create a forecast. I needed to create a team. I needed to create a feedback loop with my team.

I needed to be translator between leadership and the team, but also from the team to leadership. So in that sense, I have the feeling that I still need to grow so, much to become a senior leader because I really consider myself as a junior leader that I. So if the question is what's next, I really want to see myself grow into this role without having the ambition to go to VP because everyone wants to move so fast. It's, and I don't get me wrong.

I was living for the title. Like when my founder said, want you to be head of CS, like I was working my little behinds of like the energy because I was like, my God, yes, that's such a cool, cool title. But people often forget like the, the, the other side of it. Like it really means to start back from scratch and feel very self-conscious about yourself and not so confident anymore. so.

in that sense, it's now all about again, that new personal journey to feel comfortable and confident into a role that I was so comfortable in as an individual contributor because I did that for like six, seven years. but now it's, it's a back to the junior. So if you would ask me, you see yourself as a VP in two years? I honestly don't know because I honestly don't know as well if head of customer success is something for me. I love it. Like, like two pieces right now.

But it doesn't mean that if I grow comfortable in the role, if that's something that I truly want to do for the rest of my career, or do I want to switch back to that individual contributor? Because that's equally fine. You have individual contributors that are at the same level as a VP of customer success, but they have their area of expertise. So in that sense, I don't know if it's like the answer that you were hoping for. but I don't know.

Anika Zubair (17:50.497)
the next step for me is just growing more comfortable in the role that I am right now. I love that, by the way. I love your honesty. I love the vulnerability. And I love that you just said something that I think is on a lot of people's mind. Like, sometimes it's really good just to be very either focused or totally, for lack of better word, OK with being in the role that you're in. Sometimes we're always on this hamster wheel, as I like to call it, which is like, what's next? What's next? What's next? What's next? And it's the career corporate ladder that we're all climbing.

Sometimes it's really good just to like, again, sink your heels in and get into the nitty gritty of your role. And you're doing exactly that, which I know you've mentioned a few times already that sometimes it's uncomfortable. Sometimes you have to try new things and you're learning every single day on the job. I always say this to my family. I'm like, my MBA is every day in my job because I'm learning so much about a business. I'm learning so much about myself. I'm learning so much about my customers, product, you name it.

Like you said, a title is a title. You can be head of nothing, to be honest. can have the title and then maybe there's no team and maybe there's no customers, but also maybe you're head of customer success and it's a huge global team with hundreds of people. Who knows and who cares? But what does matter is the impact you're making, which is by the sounds of it, amazing. By the way, like what was it, 56 or something? I'm already forgetting the exact number. That's huge that your team, which did not have a revenue target before this year,

is now selling or upselling, let's be correct, upselling customers more than your sales team is bringing in. That is huge. And I'm sure everyone listening wants to know the secret sauce. Like, what are you putting in to make that secret sauce to create your team to that level? So like, let's jump in. Let's actually talk about first time leader to revenue leader, because that's what we're here to chat about. What were the key milestones that made you transition? Or what actually made you

just a CS leader to that revenue focus leader? I think two things really sparked and then we can go more into practical stuff on how I did it at whale. But I think the foundation was laid down. First of all, huge shout out to my founders team or my other leaders that are within whale. They are the best.

Anika Zubair (20:13.547)
foundation and support system that I could all support. And I do know that not every company has that support system. But like that for me was by far, they knew I was uncomfortable. They knew that I was like, Hey, I'm not a sales guy. And I'm still not like, I'm not here for the hard sales tactics. never have. And I always run as fast as I could to the hills. If someone expected that from me, but they were like, Hey, know, we have like confidence in you.

Like just try and make it your own. So that was really great that they gave me a canvas to be like, okay, this is the target, but they gave me a canvas that was so blank that I could just like be myself. So that was really great that I got a room to, to, to start it myself from my own. was no expectations except like the goal, the OKR, the KPI, whatever you want to call it. But then again, also again, the stuff on LinkedIn.

the stuff that you were putting out to stuff that Christie was putting out to stuff that you read was putting out. Rachel was putting out. There were all of these trends that sat like 2024 is going to be a mind shift for CS. I saw everyone struggling a little bit. Like, how do we get there? How do we get there as a community? so also there, I felt supported and that's the beautiful thing about LinkedIn, right? We always put stuff out and the most beautiful thing that I love about that.

is that you feel seen. Like stuff that you put out, Christie puts out, it's for the entire following that you have. But in that point in time, I felt seen. It was created. It felt like it was created especially for me. So I had that support system where I just was like, okay, I got this. Everyone else is struggling as well and trying to like, to put stuff on LinkedIn or, and just give nuggets of information.

and then the practical thing for me, we're really sparked it is I just went back to the basics. Like what is the thing that like customers, how do we drive value? What, is the main reason why they bought into wheel or any product for a reason they got sold a dream by sales and what you, what does sales use return on investment calculator? And it was like, how, if we now put that return in investment calculator from a CS perspective,

Anika Zubair (22:35.917)
I do have a CSP, I do have product usage data. So what I've done is basically look at the product usage data and see what our competitors do or what would happen if they didn't have Whale. So for instance, again, and I talked a little bit that it's super easy to search and find stuff on Whale. So if I compared it to like, what if you would still use a Notion or what if you would still use a Google Drive or a SharePoint?

I used AI for that for like scientific research and there has been scientific research, for example, on how long it takes to find a step of a process. If you work on Google drive or on SharePoint, it often takes 30 minutes. I have the data and my CSP that states that they search for average five minutes and we'll find something three to five minutes. So then it's easy.

You went 25 minutes back in will, and then you really search for, okay, what is the hour, the average hourly rate of an employee. And in the States I looked it up, it's like $35 give or take. So then you do 25 minutes that you went back. Multiply it by the average hourly rate of an employee and then multiply it with by the amount of searches someone does within a month. And then you have a value, then you have tangible value.

tangible return on investment that you can showcase the customer. We've done that for four areas within our product, like our four main selling points. We have built and thank you Chachipiti for that. An extension that like locks into our CSP where we just need to fill in some data that we got from the product. And the extension gives you the email template and also gives you the

penetration rates of what is feasible for that client as an expansion. Because we always like you have HubSpot or any other AI tools that can see how many employees work at a company. And the thing is what I've learned as well, like if we have 10 seats in Will and you have 100 employees working at the company, don't go for that 90 because not everyone is going to buy it for that 90. So there is like a formula that you can easily find online as well. Like it's called the penetration rate.

Anika Zubair (24:57.613)
where you basically where to basically calculate following the latest benchmarks, what the penetration rate is that is what you need to aim for for expansion or upsell. And I think that's around for our product around like 20 or 30%. So that was easy to grow in until that 100 mark, but over a year. So for the first quarter, we went for 20%, the second quarter for the additional 20 % until the end of the year, based on the tangible usage.

product data that we then translated into actual money and it resonated with people. it was at that point in time, those were the tools, but how you bring it to the customer was completely up to my team. need to feel very authentic. Like I am super bubbly. I'm like, pump on cheerleading and here are the numbers, but I've equally people on my team are very pragmatic, like are not here for small talk and go straight for the kill basically. in that sense.

That was also super easy because I also segmentate and that's maybe a little bit weird. but I segment our customers based on the personality of our customer success team, because I know I vibe very well with like small talk people that want to talk about real housewives or anything reality or just want to like just small talk and build that relationship from the get go. And then I have equally again, people on my team are

who are 180 degrees of me, like again, very pragmatic, straight to business, no small talk. You feel a little comfortable with small talk, but I also have customers who feel very uncomfortable. So I pair them. So we have created this entire from sales as well that we know upfront, these clients are going to vibe very well with these customer success managers.

Take that into account, take into account that we have tangible return on investment and then the storytelling on top of that, it feels so natural to expand a customer because they were like, we trust you because we made sure that there was a connection, whether if that was just a formal business connection, whether if that was just 10 minutes bitching about, sorry, peep, 10 minutes peep peep about the episode of the Real Housewives from the day before.

Anika Zubair (27:17.889)
They felt seen and I will shut up in a second, but I wanted to make sure in the era of AI, it's very hard to find a human touch. Our lives, our day-to-day work is covered by applications. For everything that we need to do in our day-to-day job, we have an application, a meeting recorder, a CSP, a CRM, an email. that is the thing. No one is going to respond to CSMs that automate everything.

Well, or like you can automate everything, but if the email doesn't feel personal, they're not going to respond. But if you are matching your customers to your customer success manager based on personality and in the calls that you have, you have a very great relationship. And again, it doesn't matter from what point of view, but at the end, they feel trusted. You are the trusted advisor. They're not going to trust you if you're 100 % are going all in on AI. You still need to have those human touch points. And if you don't go for that revenue mindset,

It feels supernatural. It feels super authentic. I never ever needed to use hard sales tactics. I leverage the product usage data and the relationship that I've built to unlock the next level of growth for my customers. love it by the way. I have asked you one question and I think you've just done my, the whole topic of the podcast. I've like frantically like writing down notes, but I'm like, yes, you know, yes, yes, yes. Like everything you were saying, like from

what I like to call customer success math, you called ROI calculator, but I'm like, make the math make sense. And you did that for your customers. But I love that what you just said at the very start where you were like, I went and did the research. I found out how much time it takes for people to search and things like you really understood your industry and how your customers use your product. And you created the ROI calculator for your team and for yourself. And yes, you used.

AI and chat shooting to like automate parts of it. But you realize like, listen, my customers come to whale for a reason. They're trying to solve a business problem. They're not trying to find a feature or, or some sort of plug and play. They're trying to solve a real life business problem. They're trying to save time at the end of the day, but it sounds a bit to me and saving time means that they can focus on growing their business in other ways. You created a calculator on how much time they save by using whale and then

Anika Zubair (29:42.145)
Like you said, your team now plugs in this formula and gets real tangible numbers because at the end of the day, every business is trying to make money. And if you're able to show your customers that they're able to save money by using whale or by growing their revenue or whatever the case is, they're going to be like, yeah, that's a no brainer. A renewal is a no brainer. Of course I'm going to buy another seat or whatever the upsell is. I love that you've created that calculator because a lot of CS pros are like,

How do I even create CS math? Like, what do I do? And I'm like, well, you gotta do the research. And I love that you've given estimates, by the way. I think a lot of people get scared by an ROI calculator saying they need to know like, it's $300 and five cents exactly saved. And I'm like, no, people just need to know rough estimates. And you created a rough estimate ROI guide, which is so great to hear. And your team now has this, I guess,

way of working, which is really awesome because you've given them the tools to really succeed and help them. But you also did something really cool that I've never heard before, which is the persona segmentation. we can call it that, which is really cool because it helps your customers succeed by having someone who's like them as their actual trusted advisor. So that's really, really cool.

You created two different things in order to really shift the mindset. And I know we talked about this earlier, like mindset really is everything when it comes to these things. You're not hard selling, but you are owning a revenue target at this point and you are expanding, you are upselling. So how did you get your team to start to use these things? Cause it's really intimidating. If you've never owned a revenue number, I know you've created a calculator for your team, but even then it's still intimidating to have these conversations with customers

to get into the money topic, because honestly, it's an uncomfortable topic to discuss. So how did you bring your team along for this journey? Well, I think there is where the leader part comes into play. I've had that RE calculator, and I did all the research, but I never ever gave it straight to my team.

Anika Zubair (32:04.139)
because that could be intimidating. It's like, here is all this information, figure it out. Like the thing is, again, I didn't have that revenue mindset. So I really needed to train myself and make myself comfortable by just already trying it out and trying to, if it works. and it started to catch on. And then I just share my insights. Like, this is how you use it. This is how I do the storytelling. So for them, it feels natural because it was like, you need to be authentic in a job and, and

I really think it's important to, again, not impose stuff on your team that you're not comfortable doing yourself. So I just like small bite size, take them along the journey, just letting them know I'm working on this. I'm trying out this. This is the result. showing them recordings on how a customer meeting went. And as a thing, like if you are in a customer meeting, they always want to know what's next.

And if you start your meeting by saying like, Hey, this is how much money you've saved and give that details reporting. And just an awesome, like, Hey, this is definitely the money. I know that you still have a team that isn't on whale with the money that you saved. can easily reinvest that. That's completely different conversation on going just on the call and be like, okay, when can we add the next part of your team? No, you start your storytelling from, Hey, this is what we found out. I know that you still have a team that's on there.

still not on well, can we use that money to reinvest it in that team? It shouldn't be now. We can definitely do it in a couple of weeks time because I know you're busy. Again, the trusted advisor comes from a very, it comes from that place and it's all about the point of storytelling. I've given them the tools to base themselves. How I was not the wild, wild west. It's more like, Hey, Hey clients, like we always do, this is the value. And now I can give you tangible value.

And let's open up that conversation. And that is the way on how they grew comfortable because they've seen me do it. I was comfortable. So I didn't feel like I was an imposter cheerleading them on in something that I wasn't comfortable with, or I didn't even know that it was driving results or it would work. I knew it worked. Gave it to my team and took them along the journey and cheerleaded them on because I was confident that this was the way to go.

Anika Zubair (34:27.391)
I love that. I love that you're actually coaching as a leader, which isn't always the case. like, sometimes you do need to coach your team to get to that next target. Sometimes I think a lot of CS pros feel this when they're in it, their manager gives them a upsell or expansion target and says, good luck, go do it. And I'm like, it's, I'm like, what, how am going to do that? And so I love that you are a big believer in.

showing and telling basically the strategy of like, listen, I've done this, here's a recording, here's how I've done this. Obviously put your own spin on it because you have your own personality, you are your own person, but here are the strategies that I've tried and tested. And now I want to see you succeed and I will help you along every step, but you've really built out some of the strategies yourself from the ROI calculator to the storytelling, to the ability to show value in every single call by

following up with a strong email or again, using AI or automations to make sure that you're connecting all the dots. All of this is so important. I think a lot of people think, I just have to get on a call and say the right words. It's not that, it's a big chain reaction of a number of things that you're doing day in, day out, and you're taking your team along that journey, which is super important. again, 33 % to 56, right? You've like now,

selling more than the sales team. And all of this sounds like a fairy tale, by the way. But let's be real. There's probably been some bumps in the road. I'm pretty sure you've said it. You've been authentic and real. What was the biggest challenge that you faced when you were first aligning your customer success mindset or strategies with these revenue goals? What was the biggest hurdle that you had to overcome? It was basically the budget cycle of my customer.

Like I always knew that you need to take that into account with the renewal. Like you need to hit renewal before the budget cycle of your customer. you know, their financial year and by the. When the renewal is coming up, you, and again, especially in the economic landscape of today, everyone is so, so like e-arm budgets. So I already knew that with renewals that you need to come up, like come in very, very early and.

Anika Zubair (36:46.157)
Like you need to make them aware like calculators in into the next budget. But for expansion, a rough sell, it's the exact same. Like it isn't any different of renewal. Maybe the amount is smaller, but everyone is so budget constrained right now. Like it, I was very discouraged in a way when I was like, it catches on and it generates enthusiasm. But in the end,

People are like, we're still going to wait a quarter. And I was so fed up and I was like, but we have all this amazing data and you agree with me. Like, why aren't you like expanding or upselling? but that's just, then, again, and I tried more hard sales tactics, but it's again, it's, it's a dance. It's a dance. It's a, it's ballroom dance that you're doing. It's like the sensual tango that you're dancing with your customer.

But it's a give and take. Like you need to understand as well the economic landscape that we're in right now. And if you're aware of the budget cycle of your customer, like again, be the trusted advisor and have learned that expansion is now as well a long-term game and not a short-term game. Definitely. So yeah, it's more the bumps in the road. Again, how enthusiastic can I advertise you're all

you are from the new tactics that you've tried out and seem to resonate with your customers. Know who is sitting in front of you. who, yeah, that is by far. You can't pressure someone. I think we think being strategic or being like a proactive customer-assessed manager means knowing your product and your business really, really well, which is important. Don't get me wrong. Like you should know how your product impacts your customer's business.

But I say it all the time and I think you're saying it too is like customer success managers and leaders have to be business strategists. We almost have to be a consultant at that other company. Like whatever your customer's company is, you have to know it almost as well as your own product. Cause you have to direct them that like, listen, you're in a year of like tough revenue decisions or your budget cutting or you're really looking at everything on the P and L.

Anika Zubair (39:09.389)
So let me show you how my product can help with that, or let me show you how we can grow while still being budget restrained. Like, it is so important that you need to understand these things, because let's be real, if you're just gonna churn out like product information, or you're gonna just tell them the how to use something or how to implement or all these stuff, I'm sorry, an AI bot or a guide can do that. You are a real human that's there to really strategically drive the conversation and relationship forward.

got to check in with your customer and their company. And the only way you're going to do that is by really understanding what they want and also what their business is looking to do, which is so, so important. I'm so glad you, you mentioned that and you were real too. Like, listen, you've got to, you've got to be real in the situation we're in and everyone is a little bit budget tight at the moment. So it's, it's so, important, but you also mentioned the dance. And I think this is so important and probably some CS pros feel like a fraud if they're going in and trying to sell or they're trying to be that.

Salesy person and I don't think it's like that and I don't think you think it's like that But how do you find the balance between like? revenue focus CS and like the traditional CS metrics like NPS or or turn or things like that. How do you how do you find a balance between the two? It's it's the thing is I don't think they're maybe that's an unpopular opinion But it just fits in into the same line. I think it's it's You should know

There shouldn't be a distinction between strategic and like traditional CS. Everything is traditional CS. The strategic part just became part of our traditional CS, right? And I do, I do get that people see it like this new era and this is called strategic CS, but that will become just the new norm. This is the new norm. So if you're talking to me about traditional CS, that strategic is now

part of traditional CS. It's not something that is on top. Every business, every CS manager needs to grow that revenue strategic mindset is just on how our profession evolve. So in that sense, in a couple of years now, traditional CS would be called strategic CS. So in that sense, I always, I now place it in the same row. Like it is part of my job. don't look at any metric.

Anika Zubair (41:37.611)
different, like this is, this is equally important as all the rest. Like it's not like one year and then two ways of doing a job. need to incorporate it all together because everything is linked to your kickoff, your product adoption, your upsell, your expansion, your renewal. All of that is in the same line of the customer journey. So treating it as a different part or as a completely different aspect.

would be unfair because it is part of your traditional CS, if that makes sense. It does, it does. And I think it's just another multifaceted part. Like we are not one person or one way of working. Like you said, you have different CSMs that have different personalities to you. And you also said that your customers work differently and their businesses are different. Like you can't apply everything to every scenario, but you have to add in.

It's an and, it's not a or. Or. Or. And I completely agree. think being strategic and being that business advisor to your customer is an and in customer success. You don't have to be the hard salesperson or the sleazy salesperson, as a lot of people are afraid of. It's an and, and it's a skill that you have to pick up, I think, to be successful in CS in 2025, in the future years. I just think it's something that is going to become default, like you said. So I love that you agree.

But listen, we could keep chatting and chatting and I want us to keep chatting, but I do have to wrap this up. And as everyone's listening, you've been super authentic with us, which I absolutely appreciate. But looking back at your career, looking back at the last few years of being more shifting towards that revenue mindset, is there any like top lessons learned or anything that you want to share with other first time CS leaders or any CS pro that's aspiring to transition into that revenue mindset that we've been talking about?

find your people. is for me, that was definitely a game changer. Just know that CS as a profession is no lone wolf kind of profession. It's also there if you're trying stuff out, try to find your people, try to find your support system, try to find people on LinkedIn that you vibe with. Like that for me was, and again, it's those people that you read the post that you feel that they're

Anika Zubair (44:04.479)
especially written for you at a moment of time. Those are the people that you want to like tag along and connect with and network with. Because in that sense, I always have this feeling of this invisible, but visible support system. If I'm working on something, I know sometimes I just transfer myself into your shoes or in Christie's shoes or in like, would Anika do? What will Christie do? Kind of vibe.

And that is just important. if you're trying to shift, don't try to do it on your own. Try it by connecting with people and trying stuff out and throw stuff against the wall and hoping that it sticks. Don't be too hard on yourself. Create a support system also internally with your company where you can just have a blank canvas and try stuff out.

Be authentically yourself, don't try to mold or fold yourself into something you're not or you don't want to be and then it will all work out in the end. Yeah, I love that. I love it. I love that you've been authentically you. I love that you shared that. I love that you said CS is lonely enough. Like don't try to do it on your own. Learn from other people, other people's experience. There's a lot of people who share a lot of things about how

Things have been done in previous companies, in previous times, whatever. There's so much to learn out there. And I love that you're, you're an forever student, I say. So, you know, I feel like you can just keep taking things and applying it and learning and not giving yourself a hard time. So I love that. Hey, CS Pros. I want to quickly jump in and let you know if you are enjoying this episode, but wondering how you too can become a revenue focused CS Pro, then I have the answer for you.

Some of you might not know this, but I run a cohort-based coaching program that walks you through step-by-step on how to align customer success strategies with revenue. It's called CSM RebUp Academy, and it's my complete step-by-step coaching program that helps you elevate your skills and mindset to focus on driving revenue for both your customers and your company.

Anika Zubair (46:10.537)
As this is a live coaching program, we only open the doors for enrollment a few times a year. And the next time we're opening doors is just in a few weeks. So if you're wondering how to apply the strategies discussed in this podcast in real life, then sign up for the wait list in the show notes below or go to the customer success pro.com forward slash CSM hyphen rev up hyphen Academy or just check the show notes. But listen, we've got to wrap up and I always wrap up every podcast episode with

my quick fire questions where I challenge each one of my guests to try to answer these questions in a sentence or less. Are you ready for the challenge? Sentence or less, that's right. Okay, let's go. The first question I have is if you could predict the future, what do you think CS will focus on next year?

Anika Zubair (47:05.279)
Revenue, still, still revenue. I think so too. Awesome. Good start by the way. You did one word. I'm really proud of you. Next question is which app or software do you use every single day or every week on your phone or laptop and why? CS related? It doesn't matter, whichever. CS related, Custify, that's our CSP, Bible, on my phone, HiU.

that is an application where you can watch all the things with housewives, then that goes on every day. I love it. I love it. Amazing. Next question is, if you could change one thing about customer success, what would it be?

Anika Zubair (47:49.589)
That were portrayed as glorified support. Okay. I know. It's, feel like that's always the case. We've been constantly in that battle, but yeah, I agree. Amazing. Last question is who should be my next podcast guest? so many people to name. I'm so long winded. but I think...

Melanie Fay. Okay. she, for me, yeah, Melanie Fay, she's been a revelation for me. she was on the radar. She's a little bit under the radar, but she's so knowledgeable and she is a very great individual contributor and I've learned so much from her as well. so yeah, Melanie Fay would be a great addition. Amazing. Thank you so much, you know, for.

All your time, your energy, the good vibes, everything in this conversation. I learned a ton. I'm sure my listeners did as well, but if they do have any follow-up questions or anything that they want to talk to you about, let us know what's the best way to get ahold of you. LinkedIn. I was about to say it's probably LinkedIn the way you've talked about it this whole time, but amazing. And for those who want to connect with, you know, I will put all his details on the show notes. Thank you again.

I love this conversation so, much. No, thank you. And again, I want to grab this opportunity to just say thank you. I've say it to your face all the time, but the you've been in here at the game so long and the way that you're producing content for free is insane. Like the way that you create all of this stuff for free into your posts to just help out a community. I hope you receive.

some of the light and some of the love and some of the passion. And I know we can't repay that, but I hope that every day you will feel seen, you feel loved, you feel that you make an impact because I need people to reach out to you and say to you how amazing you are because again, you've been with me since eight years and you've shaped the career and me, how I am as a customer success manager today. again, people that are listening in grab the opportunity to say thank you.

Anika Zubair (50:14.157)
to you because again, you're one of the muses, one of the founding members of CS. So I want also to grab this opportunity for people to say thank you for taking the time out of your day to help anyone out. are the best. And this is why you are the Custodianized cheerleader, but you are also like my personal cheerleader that I absolutely love. Thank you so much. That was so kind and unscripted and I did not ask for it. And I'm like, you're under watching all my videos.

straight from the heart, straight from the heart. Aw, thank you. That was so sweet. Thank you again for all your time and thanks for everyone for listening. Thank you. See you soon. Bye-bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Customer Success Pro podcast today. I hope you learned something new to take back to your team and your company. If you enjoyed today's episode, please can you take one minute to give me a positive review on Apple Podcasts? It takes a lot of time and energy to create an episode and I want to continue to create more for you.

but it would be great to know that you are enjoying these episodes. Also, do not forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts as I release a new podcast every month. And if you have any topics that you would like me to discuss in the future or you would like to be a guest on this podcast, please feel free to reach out. All my contact details are in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to share it because sharing is caring.

Thanks again for listening and tune in next time for more on customer success. Cheers to your CS journey and catch you next time.