Anika Zubair (00:00.483)
Have you ever finished a QBR, shut your laptop, and thought, did that actually move the needle? You did everything right. You shared the usage, you ran through the slides, maybe even you got a polite nod or two from the executives that are in the room or on the call. But let's be real here for a second. If your quarterly business review didn't lead to new insights, new alignment, or new opportunities, then where was the value and what was the point?

Hey, CS friends, I'm Anika Zuber, and today we're diving into one of the most misunderstood and misused tools in customer success, the elusive executive business review. This episode is all about how to stop running reporting sessions and start actually running business conversations. In today's episode, I'm gonna walk you through why so many QBRs fail to actually resonate with executives

I'm going to also cover the biggest mistakes customer success managers make when preparing and delivering them. And I'm of course going to be giving you my personal framework and tips on what to do instead in order to truly run a strategic revenue focused executive business review that actually drives a partnership. Now, my personal framework for turning standard reviews into commercial growth is something that I actually live by and I've helped coach

hundreds of CSMs through. And I also have a challenge for you at the end of this episode, like I do for every solo episode, because I really want to be here to transform you into the best possible customer success professional you can be. And I want to make sure that you are transforming your quarterly business reviews into something that is truly unforgettable for your customers. So let's dive in.

Hello everyone, I'm your host Anika Zuber and welcome to the Customer Success Pro Podcast, your go-to space for real talk, expert advice and actionable insights in the world of customer success. I'm a CS executive leader, award-winning strategist, CS coach and customer success fanatic. I help CSMs and CS leaders build the skills and the confidence to become revenue driving pros and scale world-class CS teams.

Anika Zubair (02:21.262)
So whether you're brand new to CS or a seasoned leader, this podcast is here to support your growth. Because customer success isn't a destination, it's a journey. And I'm here to be your guide and navigate every step of your journey. So join me every Wednesday where you'll get fresh CS tips, tricks, and strategies you can actually use. Some weeks I'll share my own insights and best practices from working in CS over the last 13 years.

And once a month, I'll bring on expert guests to dive into the most relevant and pressing topics in customer success today. So if you're ready to level up, hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you tune in, and let's make your CS journey a little bit easier together.

Anika Zubair (03:14.584)
So before we dive in, if you are loving the podcast and you are enjoying these episodes, please make sure to follow and subscribe to the Customer Success Pro podcast so you never miss a new episode dropping. And if you can, I would really appreciate you taking a second to leave a review or comment. The more comments and reviews I get,

the more popular the podcast gets and the more likelihood of me bringing on amazing guests for you onto this podcast. So if you've ever listened to any of these episodes or left me a comment, know that I have read every single one of your comments and it warms my heart. And every single time you share this podcast episode, it really does help. It not only helps the CS pros like you,

but it also helps the show grow. So I truly appreciate you. Okay, so let's talk about the real reason that this episode matters. And the real reason is, is because all of the business reviews that customer success professionals are doing today are probably completely forgettable. And I know that really hurts hearing it. And even if I look back at my career and early on in my career, my first business reviews that I was conducting, honestly,

they were really not impactful. And the thing is, is in business reviews, we like to go through a checklist of items with our customers. And unfortunately, that checklist ends up serving us more than it serves the customer. And listen, I know there's a hot debate on business reviews, and I know a lot of people who are listening to this podcast are probably thinking business reviews are something of the past. Now, I still truly feel like business reviews, whether they're quarterly or executive business reviews,

They have a place in software, and they have a place in customer success. But the way we've been running them for the last 10, 15, 20 years, unfortunately, it is not serving our customers. Most business reviews that most SaaS customers because professionals are serving up today, they are probably serving the company more than they're serving the customer. And I don't want to say all of this to sound harsh or put you off or tell you that this reviews are just

Anika Zubair (05:31.596)
dumb because they're not. have a place. I totally think they're an extremely powerful tool. And I think they're actually being underutilized in customer success. And I say all of this to you because I have seen business reviews just fall very, very flat. And I have seen so many business reviews that I've either personally been in or I've sat through because I've been the executive in the room. And I have totally seen them fall completely flat and become totally unforgettable.

because they are not carrying any impact. They are just another status report. And these business reviews, they are common. I have personally led business reviews like this. I have seen people on my team run business reviews like this. Heck, I even coach people on business reviews. Again, they are very, very important. And what ends up happening is a business review ends up being this 30, 60, 90 minutes of us as customer success professionals trying to cram in

as much information to our customer as possible because it's the one time or two times a year our customer actually listens to all the things that we're doing with our product. And you know what happens is these business reviews are just another checkbox. And when we treat them like checkboxes, our customers do the same exact thing and our customers only listen to them because they have to, not because it's actually providing value. Now,

The typical business review that I see happening out there is a customer success professional gathering some metrics, maybe updating a slide deck or a template or something that's been built for them already. Or maybe you get five minutes with the VP who's just listening in for like the last 15 minutes of the call. All of this is very typical behavior in a business review. But what I see time and time again is nothing actually changes in these business reviews. Like I said,

I have been in customer success for over 14 years and every single year I continue to see business reviews do the same exact thing, which is checking a box, which is making sure an executive gets to see the roadmap and everything that we're building with our product and service. And honestly, we are doing our customers a disservice by just treating a business review like another checklist item. And it is a huge missed opportunity. If you think about it, a business review is a very, very expensive

Anika Zubair (07:57.184)
meeting. Okay, first of all, it's probably a 60 minute meeting. And whether it's virtual or in person, the number of people that show up to a business review can be anyone from the customer success manager to the product team to likely maybe some executives in your company as well showing up. But it's also expensive for the customer. Think about it. It's probably your champion or your daily user of your product coming to that business review meeting. And more likely than not,

there is an executive on their end that's probably coming to this review. That 60 minutes is so expensive and it is a huge missed opportunity because in today's economy, if your executive business view is just a meeting, it is actually losing you money. It is leaving money on the table and it's leaving an opportunity open that honestly, you could probably be taking way more advantage of.

I consider a business review the biggest stage that any customer success professional can get on because it is actually a moment to shine. It is a moment to get on stage to make sure that your customer sees value, to make sure your customer sees impact. And it's honestly your moment as a customer success professional to really prove your team's impact. Make sure you're aligning on business outcomes with your customer.

and really be able to showcase how your product and service has driven revenue and revenue retention and revenue growth forward for your customer. And this conversation only happens, like I said, a few times a year, and it is truly a moment for a customer success professional to shine. But more times than not, I am seeing customer success pros shy away from business reviews because they are doing just box ticking exercises, which is

Okay, show the roadmap, show a success plan, show where we started, show how onboarding worked, and show how the product works. And all of that is great, but if you are actually having executives in those business reviews, more times than not, they are probably not interested in any of that information. That is information that's probably very, very important for your champion or your daily user of your product. But more times than not, the executive is looking for outcomes and impact.

Anika Zubair (10:15.65)
And I see business reviews miss those parts every single time. So if you've ever felt like your quarterly business reviews are just falling flat or that the executive is just tuning out or you're basically just going through the motions, then this episode is for you. Okay, so let's unpack the three biggest mistakes I continuously see CS professionals make when it comes to EBRs or executive business reviews.

First of all, the very first big mistake that I see is treating an EBR or a QBR like a usage report. Now, maybe five or 10 years ago, it was super common that if your customer was using your product and service heavily, meaning like they were logging in, they were using your product every single day, this was a clear sign that the customer was seeing value. Now, this is pre-AI and this is pre-

pandemic software. five years ago, money was cheap and software was really easy to buy or very cheap to buy, I should say. And also before AI, a lot of us were using software in a consumption-based model. And for us, using a product or tool a lot meant that, okay, that product and tool must be indispensable and must be so, so important.

So in customer success from 2020 or 2015, it was really, really common that teens and customer success professionals treated a business review like a usage report. It was really, really important to pull all of the product data, highlight all the product adoption that your customer was using, and also show like, okay, all the champions are using logging in. This is how much usage, this is how much output that they're getting. And all of that, again, was really, really important.

five or 10 years ago. But if your EBR is still doing that, unfortunately, in the world of AI that we live in and in the world of technology where we live in, where the economy is tougher and everyone is really evaluating which tools they're actually going to keep around, executives don't care about how often someone is actually logging into a product. They don't care on if the integration is working in this way or not. And they really don't care how much a champion is using something.

Anika Zubair (12:36.546)
They actually care about results. And they don't care about the results about the product. They don't actually care about the results of how your product and service is working. So they're not looking for a status update or a status report on uptime of how your product is working. What they are looking for is how is your product and service actually helping them grow revenue or maybe reduce risk within their company?

or maybe make their company even more efficient as they grow and scale. And if your quarterly business review doesn't speak to those three buckets, it's actually just noise to the executives that are joining. And again, it is not like this is new information, but in the world that we are continuously evolving into in technology and SaaS, it is extremely important that we speak the language of executives, and that language is revenue, risk, and efficiency. That is what they care about.

Every single executive, I don't care if the chief people officer, the chief revenue officer, the chief product officer, all of the executives in any business, including the business that you are at, what they care about and what the board and anyone who they report to cares about is how are we growing revenue within the business? How are we reducing risk or making the business less of a risk as we grow? Or even better, how are we becoming more efficient as we grow in scale as well? All of these buckets

are what executives are actually caring about. And if your product and tool actually fits into one of these buckets, that is what they care about. So when you're having an executive business review with them, just telling them how the product is performing or what the product does isn't actually translating to value and isn't actually translating to the language that they care about.

And the second mistake that I now see happen way too often, and I know I've personally been guilty of this, but a lot of the customer success professionals I coach and work with, I see this happen time and time again. Every single time a customer success professional gets into an EBR or a business review with a customer, they talk at the customer, not with them. Okay, now too many QBRs really feel like a presentation and not a conversation.

Anika Zubair (14:52.746)
It's slide after slide after slide, stats, charts, outputs, all of this stuff. And there's really no room for dialogue. And that's the difference between doing an update or status report with your customer and doing an actual executive business review. Because if you've ever worked with executives or the C-suite, you know that they love a good dialogue or conversation. Executives always like to challenge the status quo.

they like to actually open the room towards conversation. And if you are spending 30, 45 minutes, maybe even up to an hour actually just talking at them, meaning throwing one slide after the next, they are going to tune out. can almost guarantee if an executive is on a business review for an entire hour and they say absolutely nothing or do not actually have a conversation with you, they didn't even pay attention.

all that effort, all those slides that you put together, all that energy that you did to build this beautiful dashboard of slides and metrics and graphs, they didn't even hear it. And the reason is, is a real executive business review is co-owned. It's a conversation and it's really a chance to align. It's a chance to align with your executives, align with your champions. And it's really a moment for you as a customer success professional to assess

the relationship and also assess exactly what value is actually being understood by the customer and what value is missing as well. And if you are just going to be a professor and just talk at your customers, I can guarantee after maybe one, two, maximum three business reviews, the executives will no longer show up to that meeting. And it's not because you don't have good information, but the next time that you go slide through slide through

each of your executive business reviews, treat it each slide like an opening to a conversation rather than you having to present endless amounts of data to them. You'd be so surprised at how much more receptive your customers are going to be to business reviews if you actually treat it like a conversation rather than just going slide by slide. And finally, the third mistake that I see happen all too often and

Anika Zubair (17:13.474)
this is something that honestly ends up stalling customers the most is not having any sort of call to action or next steps. Now, a business review meeting is anywhere from 45 minutes to 90 minutes, depending again, what type of meeting you're running, who's in the room and how much information you have to share. But a business review usually is again, a great opportunity for us to have

conversation to really open the floor to your customer to share any grievances, any exciting moments, any changes to their goals or outcomes and any new ways that they're using your product or service. And when you actually end a business review with just, you have any questions for me? Or maybe end it even worse where you're saying something like, thanks for your time, I'll catch you in our next call. And there's no next steps, no follow up, no commercial momentum.

That business review was just a waste of everyone's time. Because again, your customer is looking to you as a guide, as someone to really take the next step with the product and service. And you've now just spent 45 minutes an hour with this customer, really showing all the momentum they've gained, all the outcomes and value that they're getting from the product and service. If you end up ending that call without a strategic CTA or without maybe

a talk about expansion or a talk about a goal refresh or maybe even talking about whether stakeholders can get value from the product. If you leave a call without any of those pieces, that actually stalls an account. And a lot of times, customers as professionals that I work with, they're so confused. They're always questioning, hey, I just delivered this amazing business review to my client. I gave all the stats, all the value props.

all of the information about how great they're using our product and service and how much value they're receiving. And then the customer just stops talking or just stops using the product as much. And it's because they don't know what to do next. So if you're spending all this time building momentum in a business review, you really need to talk to your customers about what's going to propel them forward and what's next. And unfortunately, more times than not in business reviews, a lot of

Anika Zubair (19:28.558)
people end up just saying, you have any questions? Oh, okay, I've answered all your questions. And that's the end of the call. If your call isn't helping strategically and proactively guide your customers towards what's next, again, that business review is just a status update and no one in 2025 has time for a status update anymore. Just a quick pause from the podcast to ask you, have you ever heard your customers say,

we're not sure we have the budget this year. And then you felt your stomach drop. Well, let me say you're not alone. Most customer success professionals freeze when objections come up because no one actually ever taught us how to handle them with confidence. But I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Objections are not rejections. They're actually positive growth signals. They show where your customer's priorities have shifted

and they give you a chance to reframe the entire conversation around value. And this is exactly why I built the Objection Handling Guide for Customer Success Managers. It's your playbook for tackling renewals, pricing pushbacks, and that time when a customer says they're not seeing enough value. All of these objections are tough, but my guide will help you handle objections with confidence.

Inside, you'll find scripts, frameworks, and real-world examples to help you respond strategically and not reactively. You can download the guide today at thecustomersuccesspro.com forward slash resources. Or better yet, bundle it with the value storytelling handbook and you'll be able to level up both your storytelling and sales confidence. If you want to grab it today, go to

thecustomersuccesspro.com forward slash resources, or I will link it down in the show notes of this episode. All right, now back to the podcast. All right, now that I've talked about all of the possible mistakes that you might be making in your business reviews, let's talk about what good actually looks like.

Anika Zubair (21:41.484)
Now, of course, I have a framework to share with you and it's my five step framework to drive more value in executive business reviews. And I actually share this in a downloadable guide as well. So if you want to grab my quarterly business review guide, I will link it in the show notes of this video. But this is my step by step framework on how to make sure that you are actually driving value in a business review rather than checking boxes. And the first

step of this is actually starting with strategic discovery. Now this is before you actually even meet with your customer and this is kind of like your pre-work or your pre-homework. Now I don't want you to just send an invite and build a deck and then schedule a business review alignment call with your champion. I want you to do a little bit of pre-homework before you actually go and start building all this stuff out. I want you to start to ask your champions whether

it's a month or a few weeks before a business review, I want you to ask them, what do your execs care about? What's on their roadmap? Meaning what are they trying to build right now? And also ask them, what is keeping them up at night? And also what's really great about co-creating a business review with your champions is ask them, what wins do you want me to showcase to your boss to make you look good?

because your champion is using this product probably day in and day out, and their bosses probably don't even know how much they're actually working and how much they're doing. So this is really a moment for you to bond with your champion a little bit more and a little bit deeper and create that strategic relationship with your champion and build that rapport. But also, it's a really great moment to dig in deeper and make sure you understand what strategic means to the customer and what

make sense to actually showcase in a business review. Now, once you've done that level of discovery and pre-work, I want you to build your business review around them. So all of the questions that I just said in this podcast, go and ask your champion those questions and you will realize that I asked a lot of questions about my customer, about their business, about their executives, about their roadmap, okay? Nowhere in there did I ask about product.

Anika Zubair (24:02.198)
or product usage or what they think about our product. I need you to start building your business review around the customer and not just your product. Of course your product will play into it, but the very first thing you need to start doing is framing everything around them and not you. Now, the next thing that I need you to do is I need you to frame this entire conversation that you're about to have, the entire business review deck around business value.

Now it's very, very normal and very typical to go through the slide deck and talk about new features, new functionalities, the usage of the product. I want you to throw all of those slides away. I know it sounds scary, but instead of talking about the feature and the functionality, I need you to start talking about the outcome or the output of those features and functionalities. You might mention that they're using a new feature, but what business value does that feature actually

I need you to structure your agenda around one question. And that is, what business outcomes have we helped our customer achieve? Like use a very simple model of this is what you were like before you were using our product and tool. This is the product or the software or the feature that you started using. And after using this, this is now where you tell the value story. This is where you're gonna say,

This is where you were like before. This is the feature you started using. And this is the value you now see because you are using this feature and functionality. Now the before was what was the pain or the goal that they came in for? Like remember, not everyone who buys software is just buying a feature functionality. They had a pain point. They had a reason for buying your software. And that's the before. And then the action part of this. So what feature or functionality was actually implemented?

part of the tool where they start using, that's the action. And then the after, that part of the story that you're gonna start building slides around was what outcome did it drive? Did it help your customer get more leads? Did it help your customer's team save some hours in the day because it's an operationally efficient tool? Or maybe like your tool helps them reduce the amount of phishing emails they get, and that's reducing risk across the business. All of those are out.

Anika Zubair (26:26.83)
outcomes served and that is outcomes that your product and service drove. And that's what you need to focus on. Just sharing the feature and how it's used is literally just the middle. You need to finish the story by sharing what outcome it actually solved. Now the third step in my framework is making sure you map product impact to executive priorities. Remember how I said earlier in the podcast that executives care about three things? Well, if

your product is helping a company grow revenue, become more efficient, either save some money or time, or reduce risk. Those are the three priorities most SaaS executives care about. And I want you to start to use this executive lens to really start to translate your executive business reviews into a story that resonates with executives. So maybe your product and service actually helps your customers grow or protect revenue.

have you actually helped increase or protect revenue? How? Share that story with the executives, because I can guarantee they are going to care more about that than they're going to care about the logins or the products or features used. Or maybe your product and tool is helping with efficiency. And I think a lot of SaaS tools do this these days. But most SaaS tools or software these days are helping save companies some time or streamlining some processes. And if your software is doing that,

show that to your customer, literally lay it out and say, hey, by using this feature within our product, your team has been able to save 10 hours a day or streamline the onboarding process or whatever it is. Again, that language is a language that really hits home with executives. And if you are just going to talk about the feature and that it's saving some time, that's a great start, but you really do need to translate it into efficiencies at their company.

And that is what is going to resonate the most with executives. And then finally, the last bucket I'm going to bring up today and that I speak about a lot is the risk bucket. So another thing that executives really, really care about is reducing risk across the company. So are we mitigating like business risks or compliance or operational risks? So like I said earlier, maybe your product and tool actually helps with password protection.

Anika Zubair (28:50.246)
or helps make sure that you guys aren't getting spam emails or helps make sure that the company is staying up like AWS does, right? And so like all of these tools are helping with making sure the business is mitigating risk. And if your tool is able to mitigate risk, I can guarantee it is a must have software or tool. And I can guarantee that executives listening into your business review

are 100 % gonna be bought in that it's a must have tool because in today's world, we want to be able to make sure that we are taking as little risk as possible when it comes to our businesses. Okay, the fourth step in the framework is something that I wanna make sure I cover and that you cover as well. And I wanna make sure that you are spotlighting customer wins and not just metrics. Now,

It is very common in a business review to go through line by line and share customers like usage reports, logins, what's happening, how much spike in increased usage, and all these other beautiful statistics that show that they're actually using the product and service. Now, this is really good, but it's not deep enough for a business review. You need to actually, again, storytell and translate how these metrics end up being a customer win.

So for example, if your customer actually starts using a new feature within your product, I think it's time for you to actually showcase not only that they're using this feature, but how it translates to a business win on their side. So if you don't have customer's highlight section in your business review where you share something that the customer or your champion did really, really well,

Put it into your business review, give credit where it's due, make it personal. Executives love seeing their team recognized. And that's why I said earlier, it's really important to do your pre-work and make sure you ask your champion before, hey, what is the one thing you want me to highlight to your boss? Because A, your champion will love you more if you make them look like a rock star to their boss. But B, their boss is gonna love.

Anika Zubair (31:00.674)
just the tool and you more because suddenly they're seeing their team is really, really working hard and using the product as it should be used. And finally, the last step in my framework, which is really, really important and again gets forgotten because either we run out of time or we're rushing through our business review, but it's ending with a CTA that actually opens commercial doors. Now I want you to give yourself 10 minutes.

So if you normally have a 60 minute business review and you have slides that you create for 60 minutes, pretend the meeting is 50 minutes, okay? Give yourself at least 10 minutes at the end of the business review to have a commercial conversation. I know that's intimidating, but it is important, okay? I want you in those last 10 minutes to come to your customer and say something like, let's revisit your goals and identify what success looks like.

for the next six months now that we've aligned in this meeting. Or maybe ask them a question, would it make sense to bring in your regional lead or your VP to explore a wider rollout of our product? Or at the end, maybe you can ask something like, if budget is actually expanding next quarter, maybe we can discuss how you can support more teams. All of this is expansion conversation. All of this is commercial conversation.

It's exactly that, it's a conversation. So I want you to leave 10 minutes at the end of your business review to really have a commercial conversation and prompt the customer to want to do more with you. Always make sure you're leaving the door open for the next partnership. I heard something at a conference and it was absolutely amazing and I couldn't agree more, but we in customer success are no longer the post sales team.

We are actually the next sales team. And what that means is when we're having this business review and when we're actually talking to our customers, we are actually working on the next sale. Believe it or not, your renewal is a sale. So that makes you a part of the commercial part of the organization. And you need to make sure you leave room in your business review to really have that next level partnership conversation.

Anika Zubair (33:22.07)
Okay, let me tell you a little story about one of the most powerful business reviews I've ever had the pleasure of being a part. Okay? It was one of my CSMs. He was running an account that was worth multi-million dollars. And this customer was a big, big customer of ours. And we had just finished a rough, rough quarter with this customer and they had a drop in usage. They were really frustrated with some bugs and some...

open support tickets, and the stakeholders weren't that impressed. And we did have an upcoming renewal that felt very shaky and we were unsure of what's going to happen. So instead of a typical business review, we ended up running what we called a boardroom session. Okay. We skipped the product slides, we brought in their exec sponsor, and we were framed the entire session around business impact and their expansion into new markets.

and their need to reduce churn and how our platform could support to do both. And suddenly we were aligned on three very strategic outcomes at the end of that meeting. And by the end of the meeting, they were actually asking about how to expand usage because by the end of the call, I wasn't just a vendor to them. I was actually a growth partner. We were seen as strategic partners to that client.

And that's the power of a value-led business review rather than a box-ticking business review. It's not about the slides. As much as we spend hours and days and weeks on our slides, it's really not about that. It's all about the shift of being an actual partner and a strategic guide to your customer. So here we are at this point of the episode where I love to challenge my listeners. If you've ever listened to any of my episodes before on any of my solo weekly episodes,

I love challenging you because as your coach, I need you to step up. And this week's challenge is you need to pick one customer that has an upcoming QBR or EBR, or even let's just say they're having a check-in. And instead of running it the usual way that you do, take 30 minutes to reframe it using this structure. Okay. The first structure is executive priorities. The second is before action.

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the after value story that I covered earlier. And three is a clear commercial CTA. So even if you don't have the perfect data or flashy charts or beautiful slides, I need you to focus on alignment with the customer because strategic alignment beats usage slides every single time. And if you go ahead and do this challenge, why don't you go ahead and tag me on LinkedIn and let me know how it

I love hearing you guys succeed at these challenges. And if this episode gave you clarity on how to turn your business reviews into commercial growth conversations, I'd love for you to share it with a teammate or a CS leader. And if you are a CS leader looking to upscale your team in this exact area, I've worked with teams at Microsoft, Atlassian, Flywire, Workiva, and so many more.

to help transform their teams and help them turn their business reviews into executive led strategy sessions. So if you are looking for someone to actually help your team, you can book your team training directly at the customer success pro.com forward slash team hyphen event. Thanks again for tuning in to the customer success pro podcast and I'll catch you next week for another episode until then.

Don't just deliver data, deliver impact.

Thanks for tuning in to the Customer Success Pro Podcast. I hope you picked up something valuable to take back to your team. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to me if you took just 10 seconds to leave a review on Apple or Spotify. It helps more CS pros like yourself discover the show. And creating new episodes takes a lot of work, so leaving a nice review keeps me motivated to keep creating. And don't forget to hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify,

Anika Zubair (37:41.612)
YouTube or wherever you listen to podcast episodes. I drop a new episode every Wednesday packed with practical tips. And if you've got a topic you'd love for me to cover or want to be a guest on my show, send me a message. All the details are in the show notes. I'd love to hear from you. And hey, if this episode helped you share it with a fellow CSM or CS leader. Remember sharing is caring. Cheers to your CS journey and I'll catch you next week for our next episode.